A A A

Chopin 200 Piano Project

Interview with Dr. Xiaofeng Wu

September 25, 2009

 
Jennifer Palmer: I’m here today with Dr. Xiaofeng Wu to talk about Chopin and his music for the Chopin 200 Piano Project. The program that we will be discussing today is the Four Ballades, Bolero, the Nocturne in C minor, Op. 48, No 1, and two Polonaises, Opp. 44 and 53.

JP: Dr. Wu, what is it about the music of Chopin that attracts or influences you as opposed to the music of other Romantic composers?

Dr. Xiaofeng Wu: The first other object would be Liszt, if we want to compare. I think, in terms of the compositional language and the pianistic language, Liszt is so elaborate and many passages are very technical and very showy, but his music is not so structurally well-connected—it could be randomly happening or improvisation. In my perspective, Chopin is perfectionism. Everything is so structurally well-organized, including even little details of accompaniment, harmony, and voice leading. Everything fits a very strict contrapuntal or German tradition of music. But in that light, Liszt is more random and pianistic.

JP: Ok.

XW: Liszt is more virtuosic.

JP: Let’s talk about this. The writer Charles Rosen has stated that Chopin made “false sentiment real by intensifying it.” How do you interpret this “sentimentality” in the music of Chopin? You were talking about structure…writers like Rosen would probably argue that this music is not structured, that it is more an excessive amount of ornamentation or sentimentality. Do you find the sentimentality to be real, or would you be more inclined to agree with Rosen?

XW: It depends. I think it really depends on case by case scenarios.

JP: Yes, me too.

XW: If Rosen could give us several examples, then we could say this is sentiment or this is not. Take the fourth Ballade (F minor, Op. 52). He really writes it by intensifying it. I think the greatness of Chopin’s music is that everything comes out in a very natural way. You don’t observe anything “composed” or “well-structured,” but it is indeed very carefully structured, designed, organized, and composed.

JP: Ok.

XW: Yes. That is another reason why I enjoy Chopin’s compositions so much. Everything comes out so smoothly. It feels like improvisation comes out just like ornaments, but you can still really check it carefully.

JP: So would you say that you intentionally inject a sort of sentimental feeling into your artistic interpretation?

XW: Well, there are sentimental moments whenever people play it, or listen to it, or teach it. But if I could say, I would come from more of a technical perspective rather than a feeling or an emotional perspective. It depends on case by case and person by person. Everyone has a different experience. Someone could say “this is so beautiful,” or “this makes me think about something that happened in the past,” or something along those lines. This is a sentimental moment. But I’m sure that Chopin’s…well, in my humble opinion, I don’t think Chopin’s thinking was that any one particular moment should be sentimental or not.

JP: Since you spoke of technique and technical perspectives, let’s talk about the Ballades. Do you find them to be more technically or musically (artistically) demanding?

XW: Both. But it depends which stage you are on if you are working on them. First of all, most people are, especially pianists, so attracted through the musicality side of things, because those things are beautiful melodies, beautiful harmonies, and are structurally very dramatic—especially the Ballades. So if you have the motivation and the desire to work on it, then it goes to the stage of technical problems. You really have to overcome something. And then, after that, if you are past the stage of technical problem-solving (well, at least most of them), then you have the facility to go on and see about the interpretation part. That is the hardest part. I think that when someone who…if a pianist finally gets exhausted by other composers, then he or she must have so much desire just to play some Chopin. He is so affectionate. But, however, if a pianist gets in so much trouble and has difficulty going on, then he is probably playing some Chopin at a certain stage.

JP:  That’s true. I wanted now to ask you something about your teaching. Every one of Chopin’s compositions includes the piano in some way. With the knowledge of Chopin’s dedication to keyboard music, does it create a different environment for you as you teach or as you learn a new piece, or as you perform as opposed to other composers who write for piano, but for whom piano is not their primary concentration?

XW: Yes. I think the answer is definitely yes. Chopin made such a huge influence on modern piano playing. Let’s take his piano etudes (Op. 10 and Op. 25) for example. I think these should be the textbook for any professional pianist. Each one of the etudes has a specific topic, so it gives you very intensified technical issues and problems: thirds, sixths, octaves, left or right hand arpeggios, and many, many more. They are so well-done artistically as well. It helps you to understand the piano through Chopin’s way, which is also the pianistic way. I appreciate Chopin’s contribution to the modern pianistic method.

JP: Let’s go back to your comparison with Lizst. He also wrote etudes, such as the Transcendental Etudes, but he also wrote for orchestra, he wrote songs and vocal works, and he did choral work as well. So how would you compare the etudes of a composer like Lizst—who also played the piano—with the etudes of Chopin, a composer whose output is completely for piano? How are those etudes different?

XW: As I said, in Chopin’s etudes, one piece concentrates on one specific problem.

JP: Yes.

XW: And you have to make that problem perfect. They might be pushing you to the extreme point of the issue at hand.  For Lizst, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, their etudes, or even including Prokofiev or Stravinsky, many different issues can be found in one etude as a combination. You might have octaves or big leaping, and then you could have passages of many other things. In this way, of course, you can add more brilliance or orchestration or imagination, but you don’t concentrate enough on one thing as you do in Chopin.

JP: Yes, that is a very good point.

XW: That’s another reason why I really like Chopin’s influence on our technique.

JP: That’s great! I want to switch gears and talk a little about Bolero. Will you tell us just a little bit about Bolero?

XW: Yes. Actually, in your questions, you talk about nationalism and/or biography (personal life) as being influences on Chopin. May I ask you a question?

JP: Sure.

XW: The bolero represents which national tradition?

JP: I have seen this particular piece referred to as a sort of “Polish bolero,” but this is odd because the bolero is not originally Polish—it is a Spanish dance.

XW: Ok.

JP: I wanted to touch on the Bolero because it is seldom performed, and it is rarely written about. I wondered if you could give us a little bit of background on the piece.

XW: Yes. I enjoy this piece, and this piece is rarely played, but I wish to introduce this piece more. I play this piece in Europe a lot. The Bolero is originally from Spain.

JP: Yes, it is.

XW: It has the Spanish flavor, so I cannot identify this piece as being identified with nationalism because Chopin is Polish. In the piece there are scale patterns and harmonies—even rhythmic patterns—that we can trace to Spanish (or let’s say Latin) roots. But of course, Chopin has his own Polish spirit. But in this specific piece, I think Chopin might want us to try to take a tour to another country.

JP: He did spend time in Spain.

XW: Yes, he did. Maybe that is the reason. Ok. I know that he and George Sand went to Barcelona.

JP: The reason I asked you about Bolero is that the author of the book Chopin: The Man and His Music (James Huneker)…

XW: …Oh yes…

JP: He identifies the piece as a “Polish Bolero.” I suppose he finds some Polish elements in the piece. Maybe he finds some mazurka-type things that have been transferred into the piece.

XW: Yes, I think so. So here is nationalism after all! Chopin was very nationalistic even from a young age, but I think technically that there are other elements that are in this piece. This one is a combination after all.

JP: Yes, of course.

XW: That’s why we call it “Bolero.”Many composers wrote boleros. I went to Spain and I played this piece. I think that they are looking some of their language as well.

JP: I bet they really enjoyed that.

XW: Actually, there is a recording on the Chopin Project (University of Michigan) website. There is one little comment that says “this is even more Spanish than what I heard!”

JP: I did spend some time looking at the Chopin Project website. Is that the recording that is playing as the page opens?

XW: I don’t understand your question.

JP: Is Bolero the piece that plays…

XW: …Oh, yes. It is the same piece.

JP: Ok, great! Do these ideas of biography (such as the time he spent with George Sand) or nationalism play a part in how you teach these pieces?

XW: Well, I think that nationalism is reflected mostly in the mazurka and the polonaise.

JP: Definitely.

XW: I mostly try to help my students through their fundamental stages, such as the basic knowledge of the background of the piece, and the technical elements. That is the most important thing—the beginning stages. Then we can talk more about style and interpretation.

JP: That sounds good. I wanted to thank you for coming and talking to me today, and I wanted to ask you one last question. What is your favorite work of Chopin to play?

XW: Oh, ok. Before I answer this question, actually, I missed one question that you put on your sheet, and that was actually my favorite question.

JP: Ok!

XW: I think the Polonaise-Fantasie (Op. 61) would really, really be my favorite work by Chopin…or the Fantasie in F minor (Op. 49).

JP: Those are two great pieces.

XW: Yes. Some other pianists favor the twenty-four Preludes (Op. 28) and the Ballades, but I like these.

XW: Now let me talk about the question that you wrote.

[Question: Many scholars (as well as many of Chopin’s own contemporaries) have described Chopin’s music as “feminine,” “superficial,” and in “the style of a salon.” Given the frequently negative connotation associated with the salon style and nineteenth-century salon music, would you place any of Chopin’s works in this category? How might you categorize the Ballades in this light?]

JP: Ok.

XW: It really interested me—the argument of whether or not Chopin’s music is “feminine” or whatever. The reason I like this question is because I strongly disagree with this viewpoint.

JP: Me too. That is why I wanted to ask you about it.

XW: I don’t want to say that Chopin was the most masculine person, but masculinity has a variety of appearances. Chopin has many colors, and you might be able to see a bit of “femininity” or a bit of sentimentalism in it, but a man can have many different moods that he can share with his listeners. Chopin has very strong statements of masculinity in his polonaises and etudes, and even in some nocturnes. It can totally be felt as masculine. Of course, there are some pieces that are very soft and tender and that have a gentle feeling. He is not Tchaikovsky, and he is definitely not Beethoven. He has a more gentle feeling. I do not think that he is superficial.

JP: I would say that a lot of that comes from the fact that he is a Romantic composer, and that the Romantic composers generally get labeled as superficial, feminine, or sentimental, along with his association with George Sand (along with other women) and all the history surrounding her. Chopin is often paired with Liszt as being quite fond of the ladies, so I would say that forms a lot of the bases for these accusations.

XW: It might depend on his character or on his personality. Chopin is different from Liszt.

JP: Of course.

XW: I think Liszt mainly went on the track of Beethoven, and Chopin went on a different track. There are very tender moments in Liszt, but no one ever argues that Liszt was feminine or that he was sentimental. No one ever says “oh listen, that sounds feminine!”

JP: I know, that’s true!

JP: Well, I think that’s going to wrap it up for us today. Thank you very much!

XW: Thank you.